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Poster: kochman Date: Mar 5, 2014 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Gorbachev said: "He has already entered history as A MAN WHO WAS INSTRUMENTAL in bringing about the end of the Cold War,"
Which is pretty clear.

You interpreted that as...
Gorbachev said "(reagan) entered into history."
And I'm the one using "tiny, out-of-context snippets"?

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Mar 5, 2014 1:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Don't make me spell it out for you, Rob. Life is too short.

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Poster: kochman Date: Mar 5, 2014 3:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Unfortunately, your attempt to counter the information provided by the quote in question was (inevitably) dismal, because you're arguing against a clear statement with relatively unrelated counter-quotes...
All they do is prove that Reagan wasn't the only factor in every level of the end of the CW, which no one that I know has ever claimed.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Mar 6, 2014 7:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

So I do have to spell it out. Okay.

I don't find that quote to be clear at all, Rob. To me, his saying that Reagan "entered into history" that way makes no real comment on his own personal feelings about the matter (to the extent that Gorbachev or any one person should have the last word on such a complicated topic).

I simply wanted to provide more information about his true feelings. I think it's clear that Gorby was pretty sour on the idea that Reagan (and not he) was the primary force behind the end of the Cold War. In his telling, the primary forces were internal. Reagan's importance was in recognizing that Gorbachev was a serious force for change and openness. He may be remembered for "tear down this wall," but his actual approach to Gorbachev was far more nurturing. But to his credit, he didn't fuck things up. So he's got that going for him.

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Poster: kochman Date: Mar 6, 2014 8:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Well, certainly if you reduce the sentence down to "entered into history" it gives a different meaning than the complete sentence.

I am not defending the view that Reagan was the "primary" force behind the end of the Cold War... I think I've made that clear.
He was, as Gorby said, instrumental.

I think the disconnect here is that you are trying to argue a point that I am not making... and the snarky "spell it out" can be omitted in the future, hopefully.

I think his teamwork with Gorby, as you point out, was a major factor in it all too, not the rhetoric.

As we all know, the economic system of the CCCP was doomed to fail at some point... they bought a new lease on life after WW2 when they raped and pillaged the Bloc. The lease, however, remained temporary.

I would argue that Carter, Ford, Nixon, Bush Sr, etc did little to affect the fall of the CCCP. Reagan was instrumental.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Mar 6, 2014 9:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

I will omit "spell it out" the day that I don't have to spell everything out for you. Until then..

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Poster: kochman Date: Mar 6, 2014 12:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

You think it's extravagent for me to ask what exactly the hell you mean when you clearly fail to comprehend a simple sentence, and put relatively unrelated quotes up?

It didn't want to make assumptions, as you have done.
The assumption you were making led to you failing to comprehend my point.

So, if you want to debate in a civil manner, I'm good with it.

If you want to be snarky, I will not be replying any further.

I know we have a sorted past, but I've made my efforts to move on, and I ask that you do the same.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 6, 2014 11:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

I know the three of us are even getting bored w this, but one little tidbit that I have from personal experience: my dad, long since passed, and older brother (the CREAM fan) always wanted to travel on the OrExpress across Russia, and got their chance in the early 90s right after it "opened up" for US sorts...

When they got back (both loved it, of course), my dad, as the old conservative said, very first thing: "I cannot believe we EVER felt threatened by THAT..." (went on to explain the abject poverty implied to him that they were NO Super Power; alt Ho is that's WHY there's so much poverty, but you get the idea) and the completely liberal brother sez "I cannot believe they duped ANY wanna-be socialists ever" (ie, that it really was an amazingly repressive police state, but one more like a house of cards, and not the Marx-ist experiment anyone of the 30s hoped for...duh, of course).

Obviously, not informed, historical research, but they really saw the same thing, and were impressed in the same way, as diff as ea was politically, social outlook, etc, etc.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Mar 6, 2014 11:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Well, I am bored of splitting hairs over the exact meaning of G's statements, but not with the subject at hand. I spend a couple of weeks in the Soviet Union in the summer of 1988 (Russia and Ukraine) with a group from high school. I'd say I had pretty much the exact same impression as your bro and dad. The people seemed miserable and dirty to me. I'm not saying that they were, but that's what it seemed like to a 17-year-old on his first trip there. The contrast with the US was quite stark. Our movements were quite restricted, and it was also abundantly clear that we were being watched, which I guess is no big surprise in hindsight, but it was pretty scary at the time.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 6, 2014 1:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Oh yeah, that musta been REALLY cool...in a scary way, but still...what an opportunity. I was in Israel that yr, researching in the Negev Desert (that was a v safe yr or two; loved it there).

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Mar 5, 2014 1:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

http://www.salon.com/topic/the_real_reagan/

I always dug the monkey....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLtRHN7fsgY&;feature=kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc1flR0LgwY&;feature=kp

Best artist clive ever signed (that includes patti and the boys)

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2014-03-05 21:43:38